Agile Transformation und der Faktor Mensch
A top down view
Viele Unternehmen sind dabei - oder planen - agile Methoden einzuführen. Aber wo fängt man an – in dem Bereich wo die Kosten am höchsten sind? Wie lange braucht ein Unternehmen für die Umstellung? Welche Faktoren müssen berücksichtigt werden, vor allen Dingen was ist mit dem Faktor Mensch? Passen agile Strukturen in ein hierarchisches Unternehmen??
In diesem Podcast rede ich mit Eric Vautrin, der neben seiner beruflichen Aktivität als Leadership Consultant und Change Agent, gerade das Studium zum Executive Master in Change beim INSEAD absolviert. Er gibt einen faszinierenden Einblick in das Thema Change Management.
Bei diesem Podcast habe ich die Gelegenheit genutzt das Gespräch auf Englisch zu führen - Reinhören löhnt sich!.
Zum Transkript dieser Folge
Zum Transkript dieser Folge
Ashley: Willkommen zur nächsten Ausgabe des Taktsoft Campus Podcast. Schön, dass Sie wieder dabei seid. Heute freue ich mich, Erik Vautrin als Gesprächspartner zu begrüßen. Neben seiner Aktuell das Studium zum Executive Master in Change beim INSEAD ist Eric als Leadership Consultant und Change Agent beruflich sehr aktiv. Er blickt zurück, über 15 Jahre als Project Programm und Delivery Manager zurück. Eric hat in viele Projekte die Einführung von agilen Mythologien begleitet. Ein Darüber wollen wir heute reden. Welche Herausforderungen gibt es bei Social Change Management Programmer? Eric ist gebürtiger Kanadier. Ich bin Engländer, deswegen haben wir gedacht, wir nutzen die Gelegenheit, heute unsere Podcast auf Englisch aufzunehmen.
Ashley: Hi. Eric. Hi.
Eric: Hi, Ashley. How are you got good?
Ashley: Thanks for taking time to me evening where to be I want to do this podcast which is which is fantastic with of course the distance between each other very flag back I think back to the the podcast of the podcast sessions about self organizing teams sessions kommunikation sessions about conflict Konfliktmanagement The last but maybe the start of let's go up a few fate Let's dance helikopter of you and have a look what's happening thing with organizations and organizations adopt a john methodologie. If you have been a lot of time talking to different organizations. So where are we are.
Eric: Good when you and i. We have a shared experience in terms of the organizations and we the work with the size of the organization and let the question right how many organizations do we know right now that our talking about tribes or or squads. Scrum or agile. There are a lot as we know across many many different industries. We are huge pool towards agility the idea agility but also standard I think models and practices around how to agility so I think where is everyone talking about it and a lot of organizations or ben used to it by large consulting companies by organizations with this and bein suggestive to these known modus of agility.
Ashley: And then if we look at large organizations back so where we are maybe zehn 15 years ago the classical hierarchie we you have the head of department the the projekt leader of the team leader. Ja, and then on the flip side, we need to come along with the the agile approach self organizing and so on this that is one of the questions. Was is being burning on my tank to ask is ist I like try agieren again methodologie This is that like a militant and authority and hierarchie movement the that is now seeing.
Eric: In my experience yes, yes, I mean there's a position militant yes there is the very agile that from their point of view as the way that I was define the way was written and it should be and that's the only way. That's what it is that the face a lot of challenges and and push back in organizations when they common with a very very fokussiert interpretation of how things should be steht because the environment and the culture and the organization as you doing for tent 15 years it is ja it's not a simple as you and telling people are going to do things different. I do understand where this comes from the right so I think we live in a very very complex world right now and we need to protect development innovation and a services for example, then global living a very komplex world part of us wants is anchor to. How are we going to change a organization with a new Silicon valley or a new type organizations that i competitive market so I widerstand you know that there's a pool Tories that but yes something called a fantastic object it comes from with the page. And it's the human phänomene in nature that we have to believe that there are things out there we are gone fix everything the new planet. The New age organization is a fix everything.
Ashley: But I think in projects of large scale projects. Where are the unicorns? There fix everything. If you look at there is the age approach. What would pit force to them. If if you ready to go in organizations. This projekt there is let's say that. Das Work in your experience cannot work.
Eric: Ja, there can be cases a organisation ist in dieser Situation in terms of their market their market cheers completely writing there's no more innovation and organization there is b if we try and fit everyone to one month and we don't look at the situation. Dieser some the pits of the down sides of methodologie your employment where you are not going to be success, so there maybe organizations were seems to be drastik in a situation in a maybe but organizations, that's probably case and the one of trying to go their approach is what you are going to people you to get sometimes you get on conscious sabotage in the results organization or trying to your story in cities and people without actually giving them a way to manage them and if we know organization stay at the level. This is my experience that it's just a work and I work where to be to the rest of our lives focus on the product that the customer. That's not reality. Why not just always bring parts into the working environment which related to the produkt.
Ashley: Let's come to come back to go on this way to taking on the so we have the organization that was hierarchisch. Ja, the wish to move, trotz der Methodologie. Ja, ähm. Account this flip the switch I can't say that the start of the year on date ex what ever it is the first way of the young out of the wind over the fiscal yes I can't flipped switch and say no more so our guidance what experience, if we have in terms of the making at transformation baby some of the experiences that also touch on demand of time that is take in order that transformation ja.
Eric: Definitely. I think end of your questions before which come sin. I just. It's not my mind and it comes in well here in terms of this anti hire and it 14 things that we can do to videos there there is anti ja movement within the art of community in my experience now. Here we can play a use foul roll and as biological beins. We should be aware that higher is a part of there are internal make up and I brain is it's part of the way we funktion here we are not the devil evil, but there is going link then in your scrum master does this it is a fantastic object and a Projektmanager does dies ja you know father which doesn't trust anyone and not so a little bit to you know how to avid them is to see things in that simple simple imitation of how the world works and to think that you can just come in and flip to see you know Where are you hear is from most organizations not realistik so I think the from me one of the first things that I do is I look at culture and is not just organization national congress. If you are between canadian and Germans. I betrifft hier from the most ten years er and the north american decision. Germans Germans to be more consensus based more time that geeks. They are the sky and they know changes an Bord Americans and then you implementation fake is really change the decision. So what I do is I use the two from the culture map by Aaron mayor the art of the no rules rules the New Morgan and the Netflix Kultur so I know how from from my studies and I use for example to look at the countries where people come from. Da stand zum countries are more for example with japanese cold shoes indian countries even German culture in the german mittelstand more hire and it's just the first awareness in terms of before working on the transformation to be self organizer are flat und let's with the people are coming from because let's be aware just telling things are going to be different das mean at you can I race for die years of four hundred years of history just scarlet products present questions we do workshops we need to results together and that's the second hand with people within this transformation. Now for me the most important thing is really fair process in the second element. So there's a great podcast youtube from the guy who the cultural transformation and otto he speaks about how he there organization approach their transformation where do the classical let's look at where we have a hughes cause.
Ashley: Or be my way way to start because again classical this is the most extensive this is where the high castle. This is where the lease is this is classical classical metrik that we know from the past so we need to cut kurs here. Es ist so We will start with a transformation process her.
Eric: To be times where. That's what you got to do you don't have a choice, but the approach out of the people try and take that flexibilität is to say let's actually look engage with organization and see the most interest where people of them are open villain interested in party in and a change program and I start with them because the idea is that from them and from their engagement this is where welcome to fair process that has been having a positive influence and impact on the call and the white organization. So fair process is to explain. It's not a democracy, so their process is where you explain to your team to employer is the frame and which they can so we want feedback from my first we want you to be. But the frame. So it on scrum. On this is our budget. This is our time to do our first iteration. You are not to give that frame you process so collect feedback from suggestion as proposal as you have to weeks for example and that we take two weeks to review your proposal with windows you challenge you and so on this stuff as you to go back right defined and then within the mind example as you proposal two weeks as a management team and we can make a decision important thing in fair processes, then reasons for your decision decision and you from people going forward.
Ashley: Ja, the process I know that within the spirit would have to weeks before the feedback comes on the decision comes. But I know then is not left hanging. Oh my something today tomorrow. So if you say that the framework and the process is er.
Eric: It's a little bit I mean it's not completely identisch to a court, but you certain existent in the realm of love you get you're in a hanging exam.
Ashley: Wobei es für free clara vacation its clear.
Eric: From the process justice and was here I love but it's just to say ja, there is a value in giving not charity within the process value house of value for people just to getting age right and people who care but you organization I am a is left with the idea protect your knicks right the people who are the most clinical about your changes in your approach as the people who care to give them a voice give a chance to stay their case but the rules of the game. Winter gonna get in answer why you major decision and what you expect from them going fort and there. Shows that as human is not the decision we have hope for because it was a fair process. We will get on board.
Ashley: Very serious clear.
Eric: Es is really famous example we are the approach a stranger for example and to give that you can find someone with you on the split that you get to keep the money. End of the person gets it first. I 7 $ 90 % of people. WHO are Alfred? Three Dollars? We walk away. And you say sorry. I'm not interested because it's not fair. Because as you got the money as random design, but the city with two word of sylvie too american soli whatever the is you know what ever 800 $. And so or 1.000 $ around it up strange and b you can get three. 100 Dollars in Diskussion 90 % of people for a 300 $.
Eric: So culture fair process and I think about they know your culture dimensions of cultures how we kommunikative, so we have was called low context countries and high context countries now in low context countries like comedians we explain, we repeat we can. Mich dünkt einen high context countries, the japanese the indians, the russian example most communications between the line I just come to mine repeat again a step process, that's why start with culture because it's about understanding one on this time and the last fund is a safety and that's not something for which there's a clear and easy escape, but psychological safety within teams in organizations is what I lose people to fail and to not be afraid that their going to be cruise id in front of the organization, it zu at all of the people to be and to see you know. I'm going to this outside of work and to make it difficult for me to focus and really be myself and you see where teams have developer that psychological safety and connection that college of course. I don't worry about it. Ja. I've got your back things are going on my side and take the exit responsibility to the extra work you take your family whatever because they know.
Ashley: That some point in time.
Eric: And psychological safety and come back to timing so far process you can of time works. If you like to do a process, but psychological safety. For me if within three to five months with a new team. I get them work with them to the point when they can start up a little bit about the cells and you know be more vulnerable in terms of things to go to their own level of standard or things at the team and what they are trying to accounts and we can get to get to that type of conversation as a good start far process.
Ashley: You can time box. Ein Ei, ja. But then if we put that in the dimension of and organization really transform months for the psychological safety in the free press process would be right to say may be the first step is to you and don't understand all of you experience. What's like the say that the total life cycle of the transition you can't get in terms of you know how some you know how how long should people understand okay is good to take at least without saying so of indikation sort of time is needed for a success transition.
Eric: So of I believe if you in a leadership position right within a transformation the first thing as you need to say like that you are a life commitment towards a safety. Ja, so I know that organizations have a goal within a year, we have to reduce or expanded or whatever this fair process. This is a frame, we have a people, if we don't have a job. It's so that's the the market organization all that reality. In der that can be time box does mean 100 % of what you have it out to give it can be a direction. If you get a present of it for example we 90 % it's good enough for the first year for example. But you have you can have your targets in your direction the under lying heard about actually bringing people to worse self organizer in psychological safety and we connect with ohne in give you negativ feedback which is what you know podcast on conflict for example cultural dimension how feedback indirect lie I come from a feedback sandwich culture the good the not so good and the good feedback. But Germans for example a lot of my friends and colleges they feel like that's just a string in the moon just tell me what it is you want me to change right and I'm in it so the fair process part iteration right and can be time box and have goals and what you want to accomplished the transformation I fundamental transformation of the organization in a people and the indirect with the end of the take personal you want to take personal accountability responsibility that may fail that the company money that you know all things. Oh you can't. That's a life long commitment to make you really as a leader in as a manager this way never end creating psychological safety spend in a time to understand where people are at the challenges that the face that you never stop and you have the working on you see what works and what does it is a little bit to how I approach change which is not militant.
Ashley: Right to get the question.
Eric: It's a direction so we make in two and a organization and see look these are the we have daily stand up. We have i work with a organization where we agree to one retro every two weeks and ja it takes time to get to the point where we could some some negativ feedback how we could prevent time is for months das Team with the Organisation.
Ashley: Multiple Teams or squad so true hypes in the organization I I think about this something things of things to be the karlsruhe dimension look at that far process really make sure that people are klar about the the framework is clear there the psychological safety and and the full of things I have take away it's a process that takes time to you can't flip the sun say tomorrow is the organization organizing we work the work sere really be need to invest the time to have that kommunikation with the people on the stand thoughts them explain things a happening is explain what it what's required in the feedback stick with you think uk in sechs monats we could be down really as a process to to be taken over really over longer.
Eric: IT is the roll of however is leading the transformation of the executives and and the managers they have to change how the right spending the time on their process psychological safety. Have in the view that this is not three month thing. I don right. You have to be incorporated and into the roll. Now we all very easy. Take different rolls in our lives with the same person has been or vater or partner right or your employee or your. You still the same person. We can play all these different. And each roll has its conditions. And also what we have learned yeah based on many different factors learned this part of that roof right so what I do what we do is as we need to work with the roll of the managers is now. This is expression that if you change the actors in the play, but the play change is not the actors script is to work with the road to get them to ja to change or to understand and to come to that space which is like. Yes, we have the organization all targets and move on them by the mirror within the fair process psychological safety control part is something which is continuous. And it's not something. Salve. It's something that i working with for the rest of my career. It's auf den case why organizations. Bringing external.
Eric: This is the roll that we are used to plain that we enjoy plain right and that we have been over than 15 years experiments in am I mean sure I know it's the same for you have been in projects with 14 different cultures.
Ashley: Ich bin in Seminar Projects.
Eric: Und dies ist auf den Why external they are proud to help the see with this process I mean the other egal is you don't want me to be their forever. You want me to be their long.
Ashley: To the kapitalist. Kapitalist. Status change.
Eric: Ja, give the right to where the work together. Bring them denn you leave them do you for whatever in auf den call me made out progress things change but now baby conflict mission. We don't know how to so it. It's a multi year thing definitely in the size of organizations that we work in there's also I mean das Baby that is something a little bit different, but as the age of the work force, also changes right take me change the whole dimension of cultural change and.
Eric: To see the more and more about it case and you have a podcast and other podcast on die you covert it already some the challenges of flight organizations and what the sons of young people are in progress.
Ashley: We can pick up one on another eric 1II think really great impulse give you for this is talking about and a lot of people thinking about so What is this world is this change actually made thanks very very much for our time and to see you get in the future.
Ashley: Bei Taktsoft Campus Podcast. Der Podcast für Software und IT Professionals. Im Taktsoft Campus Podcast beschäftigen wir uns mit einem breiten Themenspektrum, um euch zu helfen. Praxis Fragen zu Technologie, aber genauso Fragen zur Umsetzung, Prozessen oder Projektorganisation. Danke, dass ihr dabei wart. Euer Taktsoft Campus Podcast Team!